Finkelstein: Meaning of staying human for me is basically the golden
rule. You do to other People what you want them to do to you, and always to
remember, as they say, somewhere in the Bible I’m told. I don’t where but for
there, but for the grace of God, go I. Then I’m here and I’m not in Gaza by the
throw of the dice, God’s roll of the dice. I could have been there and a Person
in Gaza could be here. It was just Good Luck, it was Good Fortune for me.
Staying human means to remember I could have been there. If I were there, I
would want the Person here to do something, you know? [Accurate.] So always. My late mother used to say, “You never
know where you’ll be tomorrow,” which is another way of saying, “It’s God’s
throw of the dice.” When she was in Poland, she went to very Good Schools, she
was the President of her Class. Then in 1937, she went to study Mathematics at
the University of Warsaw, and she had a very Good Life: Concerts, ice skating,
studied Latin, [Nomi Prins. Émy Guerrini. Stephanie Buchler. Maja Toudal. Sarah
Mack. Jennifer Campbell & the Three Women.] and then in the blink of an
eye, the whole World was turned upside down and she was reduced to human
garbage. So she learned the hard way. You never know where you’ll be tomorrow.
So we should always try to remember that if we have Good Faith and we have Good
Fortune. Part of it is because of what
we do with our Lives, that’s true.
Unknown: Yup.
Finkelstein: But part of it is just Luck. If we
were, by Misfortune, we ended up in the Wrong place, through no fault of our
own, we would want others to help us, to be there for us.
Finkelstein: I don’t think the problem is changing the way of the
dissent. The problem is most People in the World know there’s something really
Wrong with this system. There are too few People who are getting too much and
too many People who are getting too little. There’re all sort of problems,
Environment, Health. There’re so many problems that need to be solved. Under
the current system, they are not being solved, and there’s no hope of them
being solved. I would say 99% of the People in the
World know that. I’ll leave beside China and India. I don’t want to speak for
them because I think those are different circumstances, but I’ll say in the
Western Work, know that and probably large parts of Latin America also. They
already know that. The challenge is, I think, the one that Gandhi always spoke
about. How do you get People to act on what they already know is Wrong? You
don’t have to educate them and you don’t have to enlighten them. They already
know there’s a big problem here, but they don’t do anything about it. The
question is how do you get People to act? I don’t think it’s a question of
changing the Method of the dissent. I think it’s finding the Right tactics and
the Right goal that will get People to act. You have to set a goal, which makes
sense to People. If you set the goal too far, you lose them. In our
City, or I should say in our Country, when People start to chant “We are the
99%” every American understood that. They understood there’s a 1% who’s just
getting away with Robbery. They understood that. But if the Movement at the
beginning, if it had said, “Nationalise the Banks.” Now
I’m not giving a personal Opinion. Of course, I think Banks should be
nationalised. You wouldn’t have got a reaction from People. They’re not
there. You can’t go beyond where People are. You just
lose them, so you have to find the maximum point of reaching People because you
want the most enlightened, the most progressive goal. You have to be careful
about not going beyond, because then you just become a Sect or a Cult. You’re
no longer involved in Politics. Basically that’s not Theory. That’s People who
have deep roots among the People. They’re the ones who know how far you can
take them before you lose them. It’s not something you’re going to find
in a book. It requires going among the People, living with the People,
understanding them, knowing not just what they’re thinking, but what’s just
below the surface. You know the English Word is not just their Consciousness,
but their incipient Consciousness. What’s just below the surface. If we just
push them a little more, they’ll go with us. You can’t find that out in books.
You have to strike deep roots among the People, and that was basically. You
know you could say that was Gandhi’s connexion with the Indian People. He dug
his roots very deep among the Indian People. He knew them and they knew he was
one of them, the Indian People. They knew he was one of them and that he
understood their problems, not in a bookish way. He understood their problems
from the moment you get up in the morning to the moment you go to sleep. That’s
the way you build a Movement. I don’t think the problem is changing the Methods
of the dissent. I think the problem is we have to sink deep roots among the
People, understand them, see how far you can take them, how far they’re willing
to go and figuring out the tactics, which will get them to act. You know some
of it is Drama. Some of it is Theater. A lot of it is Death. Unfortunately,
that’s what gets People to act.
A
hunger striker who goes out for 60, 70 days, he’s verging on Death, the
Israelis begin to worry. If he dies, we have a big problem on our hands because
there might be an eruption. A lot of times it requires taking your Life
to the point of Death in order to get People to act. That’s the way human
beings are. I wish it were otherwise. Finding the Right tactics and as I said,
one of those tactics often is risking your Life to the point of Death and
dying, but finding the Right tactics that will finally shake People up enough
that they say, “You know what. I’m going out in the streets. I’ve had it. We’ve
had it.” That to me, I don’t think it requires great, profound Thought. It
requires hard Work and personal Sacrifice, a willingness to do the dirty Work.
Everything else comes with the willing. Of course you need smart People who
understand the big picture. I know that. I’m not going to pretend otherwise,
but even the smart People who understand the big picture, they have to be part
of a Movement that has deep roots among the People. Otherwise it’ll never
happen. That to me is the challenge. What we have to.
Finkelstein: What I think the
problem is I think all of these questions are Wrongly phrased and Wrongly put.
We do not set the goal. It’s public consciousness that sets the limit of the
goal. We have to see where People are at, not where we’re at. If it’s just
about us, it’s not about Politics, it’s about a Cult. Then you could set
whatever goal you want. Gandhi, he was a political Leader, but he also was a Leader of a
Cult. He had ashrams. In his ashram, he would say no meat, no sex. He’s a Brahmacharya. No this, no
that, no this, no that. He could set any goal because in his ashram he’s not
trying to reach the Public. He’s just trying to reach the People who agree,
they want to live in this little Cult with him. Gandhi understood
there’s a difference between a Cult and Politics, a mass Movement. I think one
of the problems with the Palestine Movement is everything becomes so Personal.
What do you support, one State or two States? What difference does it make what
I support? I also support the Abolition of Money. So what? It’s like the World
is facing an economic Crisis and they ask, “What do you support?” Well, I
support eliminating Money. What does that have to do with anything? That’s not
on the historical agenda. It’s not on the political agenda. That’s all I think
the problem is with all of these Discussions. It’s always about what you think:
Where do you stand? Do you support one State or two States? Well, as it
happens, I support no States. I would like to eliminate all States. Okay. What
does that have to do with anything? I think that the major challenge is to reorient
the way we think about Politics. It’s not about us. It’s about. Politics has to
be about reaching masses of People, otherwise to me it’s not Politics. Then we
have to see where People are at, what they’re ready for, how far you can take
them before you lose them. Everything turns out, “Oh, you support two States.
You’re a Zionist.” That’s just stupid. What if the entire international
Community supports two States? What are we supposed to do? Say, “We don’t care
what the World thinks?” That’s not Politics. That’s a Cult. That’s a Sect.
That’s not Politics and I don’t want to have anything to do with it. I want to
change People’s Lives. I want to make People’s Lives better. I’m not out to
make myself feel Good and show the World, “Look at me. See how pure I am.” I’m
too old for that. I’m not trying to make a Statement to the World about how
wonderful I am. I want to resolve the Conflict. It’s time to move on.
There’s something completely
insane about this Conflict. Want to date it, start dating it from the Balfour
Declaration. We’re coming on a hundred years. A hundred years. I mean it’s time
to resolve the Conflict. Unfortunately, I think there’re a lot of People now
who don’t, the Solidarity Movement, who don’t want to resolve the Conflict.
It’s become, you know, it’s become a Business, it’s become a Symbol, a way of
saying something about yourself. The People have gotten lost in all of this.
It’s tote bags, it’s conferences, it’s t-shirts, it’s kafias. It’s just, the
actual Suffering is just, I think, been forgotten. A lot of People I honestly
don’t believe want to end the Conflict. They speak about ending the Conflict,
like if you talk. A very Good friend of mine, he’s very popular on the Web, so
I won’t mention his name. He wrote me an email a few days ago. He said, “So,
are you still trying to bring Arabs and Jews together for a diplomatic
solution?” I wrote him back and I said, “Well, yeah. I want to resolve the
Conflict. Is there something Wrong with that? What should be my goal? What are
we doing? Are we striking poses? Are we showing People how radical we are?
Yeah, I want to find, if possible, a diplomatic Resolution of the Conflict and
end it.” Now I know it’s going to take a lot of hard Work and Struggle, and
it’s not going to be resolves in the UN, it’s going to be resolved when Israel
is forced to, and it’s only going to be forced to if the Palestinian People get
their act together and the People abroad who support them get their act
together. I’m fully aware of that. There was a kind of undertone, like “You’re
trying to resolve the Conflict?” “Oh, yeah, I am.” Laughter
of Finkelstein. I think a lot of People are not anymore, I do. I don’t
think they want to end the Conflict. I don’t think they particularly care
because it’s just become an Investment, a Personal Investment, a Business
Investment. It’s even for me. I’m not afraid to admit it. I started out
literally 30 years ago, this month. I started on June 6, 1982, when Israel
invaded Lebanon. It’s 30 years. If the Conflict ends, I have nothing left to
do. I spent 30 years. I mean, it became an Investment. If the Conflict were to
end, I’d have to get up, “All Right. Now what am I doing with the last 15 years
of my Life?” All I did was read, read, read, read, read, read, read, read on
this Conflict. I acknowledge that, but I think I’m strong enough to say, “Okay.
That’s a problem, but I want the Conflict to end.” I think some People do not
anymore. I think a lot of other People, it’s just a kind of Symbolism. They want to show
how radical they are, how pure they are, how much better they are. I’m past
that. I don’t even want to talk about it. It doesn’t interest me. I don’t think
the problem is finding new Methods of the dissent. No, we still have to figure
out ways how to move People. It’s for sure. Gandhi had his tactics, the Fasts,
the march to the Sea. He had many tactics. He was very, a very Good organiser.
I think the main problem is general orientation. What are we trying
to accomplish? What’s our goal? Secondly, making the sacrifices of living among
the People. No textbook is going to tell you what you can or can’t do. When I
meet People who are organisers, real organisers, and I sit down with them and I
want to hear, “Okay. What are People thinking? What are they ready for? What
can they do?” Those to me are the most invaluable People. They give you a real
sense of where People are at, and that’s Politics, that’s Politics.
No comments:
Post a Comment