1.
Dobbs: President Obama today congratulated Afghanistan’s President
Karzai on his Election Victory. The President, President Obama, is still
weighing his choices for Forces in Afghanistan. The Strategy for those Forces.
That is the subject of our face-off Debate.
Joining me now is
Jeremy Scahill []. Good to have you with us. Patricia Degennaro, senior fellow
at the World Policy Institute. Good to have you with us. Max Boot []. Thank you
for being with us. Good to see you again.
Let’s turn to,
first, what happened here? Last week, there was going to be a delay as we had a,
all of that nasty Fraud in the Election. There had to be a runoff on the 7th of
November. Suddenly, now, in the 2nd of November, the President sort of blesses
Karzai and says we’re done just because his opponent withdrew.
2.
Boot: I think Abdullah Abdullah realized he would lose the
runoff Election, just as he had lost the initial Election. And the Reality is,
there was Fraud. There was a lot of Fraud. Hamid Karzai’s still the most
popular politician in Afghanistan. He still has a lot of legitimacy, especially
amongst the Pashtuns where the Insurgency is based. And I think we’ve been
focusing too much on the Election because the people I spoke to in Afghanistan
when I was just there were more concerned about what their Government is
delivering for them rather than how it was selected. I think there’s still a good
opportunity to work with Hamid Karzai, work with the Governors, to increase the
kind of governing capacity that Afghanistan has to defeat the Taliban.
3.
Dobbs: You’re not saying Corruption be damned,
give the People what they want and they’ll be fine?
4.
Boot: No, Corruption is a huge problem, but it’s
not just Corruption in the polling place, it’s Corruption in day to day Governments
and we have to work on that and the best way to work on that as I discovered
myself in Districts in central and southern Afghanistan is to send more
American Troops, to send more civilian workers, to send more diplomats, so they
can work, be mentoring very closely with Afghan officials and improving and
raising their level of Governance.
5.
Dobbs: Jeremy Scahill, today the President said
at least this is resolved in response to both my point, and that of Max, at least it was
determined in accordance with Afghan Law which is very important. You
don’t feel that was the right tone.
6.
Scahill: I think it was unfortunate that
President Obama used the term re-elected to describe Hamid Karzai. The fact of
the matter is the Karzai Government is filled with Drug-warlords, War-criminals,
Thugs that have murdered people in mosques in Afghanistan. We’re spending
$5.5 billion a month. U.S. Troop casualties and deaths are going up. Afghan
civilians are being killed at record numbers. The whole Country is a complete
mess right now. The fact of the matter is the United States Occupation is the
single greatest Recruitment tool for the Insurgency in Afghanistan including
the Taliban.
7.
Dobbs: Trisha, you worked with President Karzai.
8.
DeGennaro: Yes.
9.
Dobbs: You say the Election puts any U.S. policy
that’s taken, any direction taken by this President, in a very difficult
position. What do you mean?
10.
DeGennaro: I think it’s taken away the
legitimacy of the Government. The Afghans, my colleagues there, and within the Country
that I’ve worked with through U.S. aid and through UNDP and other Areas, the
Asia Foundation, have told me basically that they thought this would be the
outcome. So they were just going to sit back because the Americans had already
decided. That in itself gives it illegitimacy. If the Afghans are not deciding
who their Leaders are, who their Government is, then what Faith do they have in
the process at all? And to couple that, to have us or have the international Community,
including the U.N., say that Fraud really doesn’t matter nor did the Corruption
also puts us in a very precarious position, saying we’re also illegitimate.
11.
Dobbs: There’s a Perception issue I think
everyone’s aware of in terms of other Nation’s views about our policy there,
and NATO’s, of course. But the real issue here is how many more Lives are lost
there, how much more Money can be spent there, because now after more than
eight years there the Poppy Crop is every bit as vigorous and substantial as it
ever was. That’s hard for Americans to tolerate and certainly for this Government
to explain. More than 900 of our Troops have been killed there now.
12.
Boot: Well, Lou, I mean, you could talk about
the fact that.
13.
Dobbs: Well, I’m going to, but just if you will,
and then I want to hear your view. Give than backdrop what is the proper course
for the President? He says in the next few weeks he’s going to make a decision
on Strategy. What should his decision be?
14.
Boot: I think his decision should be to back
General McChrystal who is a terrific General who has a great Team with him, and
has done a very careful study of the situation, concluded that he needs about
40,000 more Troops to turn the situation around. Now Lou, you were
talking about all the problems that still exist in Afghanistan. Of course, they’re
very real. I think it’s inaccurate to say we’ve been fighting the War for eight
years because
it’s been chronically under-resourced for eight years.
15.
Dobbs: But Max, I.
16.
Boot: In a lot of Areas in southern and eastern
Afghanistan where I’ve visited.
17.
Dobbs: I take your point, Max. Here’s my point,
if I may. We have been in Afghanistan for eight years. The most powerful.
18.
Boot: In a very limited way. In a very limited
way.
19.
Dobbs: Well, to the point that more than 900 of
our Troops have died.
20.
Boot: That’s true.
21.
Dobbs: More than 4500 of our Troops wounded.
22.
Boot: We’ve never made the kind of commitment we
made in Iraq and the situation in Iraq is far worse than it is in Afghanistan.
23.
Dobbs: But what I would argue, that a General Staff
who spend the Lives of 4,500 casualties, plus more than 900 dead, that’s a
striking.
24.
Boot: Well, the problem.
25.
Dobbs: The measure of.
26.
Boot: The problem is, Lou, people who don’t want
to send more Troops are basically in favour of the Strategy you’re talk about,
which is muddling through.
27.
Dobbs: I’m not talking about a Strategy.
28.
Boot: No, the people who oppose sending more Troops
basically say they want to keep our commitment roughly where it is, which puts
Americans Lives into danger without giving them a chance to win. If you send
more Troops, then you give them a chance to win.
29.
Dobbs: Jeremy?
30.
Scahill: First of all, let’s remember, there are
68,000 U.S. Troops in Afghanistan right now and 74,000 mercenaries and other
private contractors. The United States now is the second biggest force in
Afghanistan. We’ve hired and outsourced this War to essentially a corporate
army.
31.
Dobbs: Let’s give those numbers one more time.
32.
Scahill: 68,000 Troops,
U.S. Troops in Afghanistan right now. 74,000 individuals employed by
for-profit Corporations making a killing off this War. It’s the most radically
outsourced War.
33.
Dobbs: What should be the President’s decision?
34.
Scahill: I think the United States.
35.
Dobbs: Or Strategy?
36.
Scahill: I think the United States is creating a
national Security problem for itself by keeping the Occupation going in
Afghanistan, and I think the United States should pull all of its military Forces
out of Iraq and cancel the plans - excuse me, and Afghanistan, and cancel its plans
to build a colonial Fortress in Islamabad Pakistan which the Obama Administration
has asked for almost $1 billion to build.
37.
Boot: You know, we tried pulling out of Afghanistan once before. It
didn’t work out so well on 9/11.
38.
Scahill: When did the United States pull out of
Afghanistan?
39.
Boot: We made a commitment to overthrowing the
Soviet Occupation in the 1980s, then we wrote off Afghanistan and said what
happened there didn’t matter. I think in 2001 we discovered it does matter.
40.
Scahill: You think Drug-dealers and War-criminals
being on the payroll in Afghanistan. People like Karzais Brothers.
41.
Boot: What I feel comfortable with, what I feel
comfortable with is making a larger commitment to win the War and to prevent
the Taliban from taking.
42.
Scahill: How can we win the War? We’re losing
our own Security by keeping.
43.
Boot: What I’m in favour of.
44.
DeGennaro: Gentlemen. Actually, I think.
45.
Dobbs: To talk.
46.
DeGennaro: I think the bottom line here is we
continue to focus on a War-type Strategy. And with all due respect to General
McChrystal - he did his Job very well, and that is what he was asked to do and
he should be highly, highly respected for that - but the U.S. continues to
focus on the War-type Strategy, without looking at what the civilian capacity
should be. You were speaking about 78,000 people. With all due respect, I don’t
think at all the resources are unlimited there. I think the management lacks,
the Strategy lacks.
47.
Dobbs: So what should we do? Jeremy says
withdraw. Max says meet McChrystal’s number.
48.
DeGennaro: We have the
perfect Opportunity to hold a loya jirga in the area and use our Power for
something Good and something for the Afghan people and something that’s
legitimate.
49.
Dobbs: More Troops?
50.
DeGennaro: No, not more Troops. We’re almost up
to the number of Troops.
51.
Dobbs: Fewer Troops.
52.
DeGennaro: That the Soviets had, 155,000 at that
time, and we should start to scale down and build up our civilian capacity
efficiently, not inefficiently.
53.
Dobbs: Patricia,
thank you very much. Max, thank you very much. Jeremy, thank you.
Total Time: 8 minutes and 41 seconds.
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