«I’m a Prisoner in my own
Home.» «I’m afraid to answer the phone.» «I can’t sleep at night.» «I had
nowhere else to turn.» «I was going to leave the Country.» «My Wife was going
to leave me.» «I sat at Home with a Gun.» «I didn’t know how I was going to get
through the night. Then I saw my Children and I couldn’t do it.» This is what’s
said to me every single day by People.
I opened my office in 17
February 1997 with an [Advertisement] in the Paper and I had the word «Debt»
upside down. Big letters, black letters «DEBT» upside down.
You know, is your World upside
down because of overwhelming Debt that you can no longer manage? And I got 20
phone calls. The second phone call was a woman named Cleva Mae. She had borrowed $10,000
from Fleet Bank and she lost a Tenant and she could no longer make the Payment.
They threatened to file a Judgement against her, which they can’t legally do,
they threatened to put a Lien on her Home, which they can’t do. I said, «These
are severe Violations of your Rights.» I sued the Fleet Bank, I used the
Collection Agency, I used the Collector. We zeroed out the Debt and I got her
$4,000 by enforcing Rights that she didn’t know she had. Nobody advertises
them, nobody publishes them, and nobody raises their hand and say, «We do this
for you.» except our Law Firm is now doing that on a regular basis.
How do you stop this
groundswell of Consumer crusading? Get rid of the lawyer. You get rid of the
lawyer. Because it was always a slam dunk. The Collector would sue the
Consumer, who couldn’t afford an Attorney. It would not even appear in Court.
It would be a Default Judgement. Many Judges have sanctioned me, fined me. «How
dare you raise that Defence in my Courtroom? Fine you.» You know how much I’ve
been fined so far in the last year? What do you think? By Judges, various Judges.
Come on.
Morris: A million Dollars.
Cappocia: No, a million five.
Morris: Is the Court playing
the role of the angry Parent?
Cappocia: Yes. «You have gotten
this Credit Card? You didn’t deny you got it. You used it? You didn’t deny you
used it. And you took Money? And now you’re not paying it back? You owe it. You
lose.» There’s one Judge fined me $850,000 in one day. The Law requires a full
Hearing if you’re going to find a Lawyer. Ask me if there was a Hearing
scheduled. Come on, the answer’s No. No Hearing. This is the new American Way.
In 1999 alone, we saved our clients $26 million.
Morris: How many People do you
represent?
Cappocia: Around about, I don’t
know, 12,000 to 15,000.
Morris: How many?
Cappocia: 12,000 to 15,000.
Growing every day.
indentured servant
Credit Card Companies have a
scheme to keep People in Debt and to keep them in Debt to their Company. A
scheme where you’re paying them Money and you keep paying them Money. You’re
borrowing Money from them to pay them. They want you in Debt. Credit Cards
Companies want you in Debt. Why? They want the Minimum Payment. They don’t want
you to pay the Bill off. If you pay the Bill off, they cancle your Card. How
come they never ask you for more than the Minimum Payment? They want you to be
an Indentured Servant for the rest of your Life with them. That’s what they
want. How long do you think it would take to
pay off $7,000 at 21.9% Interest if you were making the Minimum Payment? 143
years. It takes 143 years and you end up paying approximately $76,000.
[Mnemotechnique, Christiane
Lagrange, Robert de Niro, Seth Klarman. Cf. Immanuel Wallerstein] The Profit
comes from the Interest and all the little other Fees and Charges that they
tack on. They have a whole litany of
tricks. Clients come into my office and say, «I can’t do this anymore. I’m
paying $1,200 a month in Minmum Payments. I have nine Credit Cards. I owe
$40,000.» It just keeps going on and on. «I don’t know what to do. I’ve mortgaged
my House twice. I’ve taken my IRA Account. I don’t have it anymore. I’ve
borrowed all I could. The Education Money for our Children is gone and I still
owe the Money. I tried Consumer Credit Counseling Services.» I said, «I
know.» I said, «It doesn’t work. It’s part of the same Network, it’s
part of the same Group. You’re never gonna pay it off with Consumer Credit
Counseling,» and you don’t. You know the Consolidation Loan you went to get?
You didn’t get it. You say, «I have great Credit. A+ on my Credit report. Why
can’t I get the Loan? You told me if I paid my Bills on time all the time, I’d
have great Credit, and I do. Here’s my Credit report.» That’s the Lie. «I don’t
care what your Credit report says. It’s irrelevant. I’m not going to give you
more Money because you probably can’t pay it.» Now, you went to Citibank or
Chase Manhattan [] or Fleet Bank for that Loan. They said, «No way. You got too
much Debt.» Guess
what’s in your mailbox when you get Home? The same Bank that would not give you
the Loan because they know your Debt to Income Ratio is too high will give you
a pre-approved Credit Card. That’s why dogs get Credit Cards. That’s why
Children get Credit Cards. Five, six, seven, eight Credit Cards from the same Bank.
We have this huge bowl of Credit Cards that clients used to bring in while they
were with us. They just get them by the dozens. They know how much Debt
you’re carrying. They know it but they’ll give you the platinum Card, the gold
platinum Card, the millenium Card, and the gold-gold Card, and when you get the
fourth Card, you say, «I can’t afford this.» And guess what? You know why you
use it? You can’t make the Minimum Payments on the other three Cards one month.
So what do you do? You take a Cash advance on the millenium Card to make the
Payments on the other three Cards. So now, «Oh Good. These Payments are due? I
get a Cash advance on Card four to pay the Minimum Payments on Cards, one, two,
three.» There’s no Reason for this. No Reason, you load People up with Debt
that you know they cannot repay and you target those most vulnerable. You
target those least able to pay, and of course, you know they’re least able to defend
any Violation you commit and they have no Conscience whatsoever about this.
None whatsoever. But you –
Morris: They have no Guilt.
Cappocia: Guilt? They have no
Guilt. Of course they have no Guilt. You can’t make them feel Guilty. But if
you sue them, you can make them understand.
somebody likes me
Morris: Pre-approval, it’s like
«I Love You» without ever having to meet you.
Cappocia: Yeah, Right, Right.
«You’re a great Person.» You know, the Words «I’ve been pre-approved.» For
what? «Somebody likes me. They’re going to give me Money. I’ve got to be a Good
Person.»
The Psychology is very clear.
«Listen, you’re a Good Person. You’re pre-approved. I checked everything out on
you. I’m sending you this Card with this Money. You’re pre-approved. You feel
Good about this, don’t you?» Right? Now they call you up to say, «We gave you
this Money in Good Faith. Why aren’t you making your Payment? We don’t care if
your Wife died. We don’t care if you lost your Job. You need $29. Send it
Western Union. You owe this Money. You used it, didn’t you? What kind of Person
are you?» Guilt. Clients come in to me and they say, «This is my Debt. I owe it
but I can’t make the Payment. I feel terrible. I feel so Guilty over this.» You know what
I say to them? «Stop that. Don’t feel Guilty at all. What you are
embarking upon now is the Business of getting out of Debt.» I said, «Think of
your Family as a Company and they’re Shareholders. Just put that in your Mind
and you’re going to save your Company. I want you committed to that Thought.
When Macy’s has financial problems, do they internalise the Guilt? And the
President of Macy’s says, ‘I feel so embarrassed about this. I feel so Guilty.
What am I going to do? You don’t feel Guilty about it, either. You’re Mr and
Mrs. Smith Incorporated getting out of Debt. No Guilt. Don’t internalise it, don’t
personalise it. It’s Business. And you tell your Creditor, ‘Nothing personal,
it’s Business.
Morris: I’m sure you’ll
understand because you are a Business.’»
Okay?
g-u-i-l-t
Morris: I used to have a guy who called me
every morning, Mr. Montclorey.
Cappocia: Uh-huh.
Morris: From a Credit Agency.
Cappocia: Yeah.
Morris: And he would leave
these messages because I would never return the calls, pick up the phone.
Capocia: Right.
Morris: He would leave these
messages, «Mr. Morris, have you no sense of Shame?»
[Laughter of Cappocia]
Morris: Or for example, «Mr.
Morris, did your Parents really bring you up this way?
Cappocia: «Up this way.»
Morris: «Is that what they
did?»
Cappocia: It’s called
gee-you-eye-elle-tee right there.
Morris:
Ring-a-ling-a-ling-a-ling-a-ling.
Cappocia: At 6 o’clock
at suppertime.
You say this
phrase, «Call My Laywer.» That’s all you
say.
Morris: Would you say that you
are in not just Debt-reduction Business but the Guilt-reduction Business.
Cappocia: Yeah, right. It’s my
background as a psychologist. In Divorce, there’s two Aspects. The legal
Divorce, piece of cake. But the Psychology of divorcing yourself, the hanging-on
lingers. That’s why some Divorce take as long as five,
six or seven years. Until they’re ready to let go, you can never divorce them.
Psychologically, they’re married to it because the Guilt associated with that
Debt is so ingrained and so internalised with them that they cannot come to
grips with letting it go. «What will this do to my Credit report? Will I be
able to buy a House ten years from now?» Hello, you just – «You think I’ll be
able to get a Car when my Car breaks down?» You have to say, «I can’t do
it anymore. I’m getting out of it. Tell me what I have to do.»
you owe me money
Our techniques of getting People out of Debt is precisely the Methods
that Donald Trump use. «You know that $100,000 I owe you? Now I’m going to be
able to pay you $10,000.» When the Dollars are very big and the stakes are very
high, they don’t treat you like the $2,900 Consumer. They call you in and we
work out a Deal, «Listen, Donald, you know, we’ve got to work something out
here.» And they do. Their Risk is
great, they stand to lose a billion Dollars. You, you owes $2,900 to a Credit
Card Company that has 10 million Clients, there’s no effect on them unless,
unless you, the Consumer, can hold up your Rights and say, «Wait a minute, I’m
going to put your feet to the Fire here. You violated this, this and this and
you owe me Money.»
Morris: The Bank owes you Money?
Cappocia: Absolutely. If a Bank violates your
Rights under the Truth in Lending Law, under the Fair Credit Reporting Act,
under all these Laws, under the Fair to now go to them and say, «Listen, when
you gave me this Card, you didn’t follow the Law, Mr. Creditor. You didn’t
follow the Law. I’m entitled to two times the Finance Charges that you’ve
levied against me on this Card. How many Consumers use the Law? The average
Consumer is not a Lawyer. They’re amateurs, they’re up against professional
Lawyers. You don’t have a chance. The Consumer has no chance.
MBNA just pulled this one. They sent a letter
to every one of their Cardholders. «You no longer have a Right to go to Court.»
I mean, I just sit there and go wild over this. «You no longer have a Right to
go to Court. You don’t have a Right to have a Jury Trial. We’re going to
arbitrate everything in front of an arbitrator of our choice and if you lose,
you have to pay the Arbitrator Fees. Which we’ll charge to your Card.» Didn’t
anybody ever read the Constitution for Christ’s sakes? This is America.
ka-blam.
That was the way it was played until a Lawyer
stood up and said, «I can represent these People. And someone’s going to say,
«Well, how can they afford to pay you?» I said, «I figured out a way. I’m going
to take the Money that you’re sending to the Credit Card Companies every month
for Interest, Late Fees, Over the Limit Fees, Annual Fees, Renewal Fees, and
you’re going to hire this Law Firm and we’re going to say to this Credit Card
Company, ‘I’m not going to pay you. Go ahead and sue me. My Lawyer’s going to
defend me for free. I owe you $10,000? I can afford to give you $2,000. You
want it?’ ‘No.’ ‘Okay, thank you, good-bye. When you’re ready to take the $2,000
that I can afford, I’ll send it to you. If you want to sue me, go ahead.’»
Morris: You wipe out the Debt, ka-blam. You
find Infractions committed by the Credit Card Companies.
Cappocia: Correct.
Morris: And from those Fines –
Cappocia: Right.
Morris: -- you take a Fee.
Cappocia: No.
Morris: How do you make a
Living?
Cappocia: I get 28% of what I
save you when I save it. You pay a portion, a portion, of the estimated Fee
each month. It may be $50, it may be $100, over 14 months, 20 months, 22
months. It’s what you can afford, how you can afford it. The whole Concept here
is not to earn Fees but to get you out of Debt.
a tank of piranhas
All I did was sleep and work. I
was working 16-18 hours a day, weaving this, client after client. «How do I
work it? How do I develop it?» The first Thing I did was say to a client,
«Okay, you got $20,000. We can reduce it to 10. We’re saving you 10. Our fees
are going to be 20%.» And then we had to reduce the Debt. I’d call the client
up. They didn’t have the Money. I said, «This isn’t working.» So we went to
Banks and we tried to get a Loan Programme going. The Banks were all, «Are you People crazy?
People can’t pay their Bills and you want us to give Loans to them.» I said,
«You’ve got to buy the Concept. We get them out of the Debt then they don’t
have this Debt anymore. They can easily afford the Loan.»
Morris: Isn’t that asking the Banks to turn
on each other?
Cappocia: Yes. Yes, but, you
know, Money makes strange bedfellows.
Morris: Doesn’t that conjure up
the Image of a tank of piranhas?
Cappocia: Yeah.
billion with a B
Credit Card Companies sent out
3.1 billion, with a B, Solicitations last year. 3.1 billion, with a B.
And 60 billion, with a B, were
paid in Interest, Late Charges, Over the Credit Limit Fees to Banks. Not one dime of
that went to Principal. Is it profitable? Most profitable Business
in the Country is Consumer Debt.
Morris: Is this a David and
Goliath Story?
Cappocia: Yes. Well, listen,
there’s me and there’s Attorney General, Committee on Professional Standards,
Collection Lawyers, Bankruptcy Lawyers, Consumer Credit Counseling Services.
Citibank isn’t a small little Bank, right? MBNA, Discover, Sears. Absolutely.
David’s going to have an Army behind him, you see, an Army of angry Consumers,
and they are angry. They are very angry over Credit Card Companies and Banks as
to what’s been done to them and their Lifestyle and their hopes and their
dreams and their futures. They’re not laying down for it anymore. They just
need someone to say, «I can hellp you.» We are at War. They’re either going to
stop it or they’re going to pay for it. It’s that simple. The War is going to
continue, it’s going to get hotter and deeper and harder and stronger, but, but
these People are going to win.
Morris: Can anything stop you?
Cappocia: No. Uh-uh. It’s
beyond me now. This is not about Andrew Capoccia any longer. This is about the
Rights of Consumers. As I told one Judge, I said, «You do what you want. You
want to ignore the Rights of these Consumers? You want to ignore the Law?» «Oh,
I don’t want to ignore the Law.» I said, «Yeah, you do.» I said, «You do
whatever you want, Judge, but this isn’t going away.»
Morris: What would American
Society be like without you, without this quest?
Cappocia: It’d be Business as
usual. How
many People struggle with this Debt because they’re too Honourable? The
Pressure, the Pressure is unbelievable and you have no one there to help you. It’s
terrible and something has to be done. Something has to be done. America prides
itself on providing Opportunity to stand up and object. We find solutions.
Morris: What about the cynically inclined
who say, «Okay, this guy is just a huckster?»
Cappocia: Yes, snake-oil.
Preying on those who are desperate. Right? Right? Okay, it’s been said, it’s
been said. But for every one who said that, I’ll give you a hundred of my
clients who have taken a Bad Life-situation and turned it around and now they
have hope and they’re going on with their Lives.
Morris: Do you feel just
excited about taking on the big bully and bringing them to his knees?
Cappocia: Where did you get
that Idea?
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