Monday, October 26, 2015

Finkelstein. Transcript. Gil Hoffman. RT, CrossTalk. 20 Mar 2015.

1.         Lavelle: Hello, and welcome to CrossTalk, where all things are considered. I’m Peter Lavelle. On the back of Election victory, Binyamin Netanyahu is to become the Israel’s longest-serving Prime Minister. What will his legacy be? A talented politician who polarised a Society, isolated Israel on the World, and refused to make Peace with the Palestinians and eventually made War with Iran. [break] To CrossTalk the Election in Israel, I’m joined by my guests, Norman Finkelstein in New York []. And in Jerusalem, we cross to Gil Hoffman []. Okay gentlemen, CrossTalk rules, and in fact that means you can jump any time you want. I very much encourage it.
  Gil, if I can go to you first in Jerusalem. What was this Election all about? Because a lot of people have said this is the true face of Israeli Electorate, or as Gideon Levy wrote immediately after, “Netanyahu deserved the Israeli People and they deserve him. What is your take?
2.       Hoffman: This is a victory of the mainstream Israel over the extremists like Gideon Levy and the international Community that tried to force its way on the People of Israel. The People of Israel voted to have a Government that will work on its Economy, that will work on bridging the gap between the Rich and the Poor in this Country, and that will work on keeping Israel safe and secure when there’s crazy things going on in the Region where the journalists in the other Countries are getting their head chopped off. So the Israelis wanted to have a leader who, right or wrongly, keeps them safe and secure, and Netanyahu really enforced that message over the last few days, and it’s sunk in.
3.         Lavelle: But the international Community looks at these last few days in a very different way, if I can point out. A lot of People point out that Netanyahu used very divisive Language – racist Language, some would say – and he didn’t run on the campaign of Equality, he ran on the campaign of Security.
  Norman, What is your take []? Let me go back to the original question, the true face of the Israeli Electorate. Why did they vote for Binyamin Netanyahu when the polls the days before had him down?
4.       Finkelstein: All the analysis show that, in the last few days, Binyamin Netanyahu ran on the two particular points. Number one: No to a Palestinian State. Number two: He was engaged in racist Fear-mongering, telling the Israeli Jewish Electorate that the Arabs were voting in drubs, and you have to go out and stop this Arab piling up at the polls. And that’s what slung the last 4-5 percentage points in Netanyahu’s favour. Now I agree with Mr. Hoffman that crazy things are happening in the Region, that’s for sure. You have the crazy ISIS in Syria and elsewhere, you have the crazy Saudis, and you also have of course crazy [kikes]. I’m not going to sing patriotic songs to the United States. We have our racial problems for sure. We have racist Police, we have racist Judicial System, but the fact of the matter is, in the last two Elections, American People twice elected a black person, an African-American. In the case of the Israelis, they just elected the Grand Dragon of the Ku Klux Klan into the office. There’s a lot of lunacy going on in Israel, and the Election showed.
5.       Hoffman: Excuse me, but this Election.
6.       Finkelstein: The true face of the Israeli Electorate.
7.       Lavelle: How do you feel about that, Gil, the tactics that were used in the Election at the very end? Binyamin Netanyahu said years ago that he believed in the two State solution, and he just pounded away he is against the two State solution. How do you account for that, that changing of position? Maybe he never believed it ever, okay? He was just saying the truth at the end.
8.         Hoffman: Netanyahu’s still in favour of the two States for the two Peoples. I think his words were taken out of the context. In fact, he clarified it in an interview that was broadcasted on MSNBC in the United States on Thursday afternoon, America Time, Thursday evening, Israel Time and Russia Time. In that interview, he talked about how he still does support a Palestinian State. What he was talking about is how he doesn’t envision one can be created under the current circumstances when there’s all these crazy things going on in the Region with 200,000 People killed in Syria, and when there’s genuine Fear that in any Land Israel withdraws from will be a base for Hamas or ISIS to take over and attack Israel.
  And I want to talk about that true face of Israel, Peter. The true face of Israel is [some Hebrew]. [Some Hebrew] is the new leader of the joint Arab list, a Party that is our third largest Party in Israel. An Arab Party that calls for equal Rights. And Arabs came out in drubs. It’s part of our Democracy. What Netanyahu was warning the traditional right-wing voters in the Likud was about outside interference that the international Community was paying to have these Arab voters go out and try to beat Netanyahu.
9.       Lavelle: They did come out in drubs. Norman, if I can go back to you about the external influences. What was Netanyahu doing in Washington D.C.? That’s an interesting external influence from American Politics. Go right ahead.
10.     Finkelstein: Gil gives a good insight into the nature of Israeli mentality. He’s telling us that the entire World, every single leader who said Netanyahu came out against the Palestinian State, everybody is Wrong. Everybody suffers from an illusion. Everybody suffers from a delusion. The New York Times is Wrong. All the World leaders are Wrong. That actually Binyamin Netanyahu came out in support of the two States. That’s the Israeli mentality. It has nothing to do with the Real World.
It’s clear Netanyahu never supports two States. Now he came out openly against it, and Israeli elected because it’s not just Mr. Netanyahu but all the Party right to Netanyahu who oppose the two States, they form the Majority of Israel. We’ve been told for years and years that Israeli People actually support the two States. But if you look at the opinion polls, 75 percent of the Israeli support for Annexation of the major Settlement blocks, 75 percent support for Israel’s retention of the Jordan Valley, 75 percent of the Israelis support keeping all the Jerusalem for Israel. That’s not two States. That’s one State plus for Israel, and a [fucking] garbage dump for the Palestinians. That’s the Israeli Electorate, that’s the Reality.
If you want to understand Israel as an American, all you have to do is to look at the South during the Civil Rights era. The same Meanness, the same vicious Racism, the same sense of Superiority. But in the case of Israelis, it’s not just Superiority when it comes to Arabs, there’s kind of Jewish Supremacy, Jewish Superiority when it comes to everyone. That’s why when Mr. Netanyahu came into Congress, the first Congress people to back out were the Congressional black Caucus. Because they immediately sensed that this is not just Jewish Supremacists, this is just vicious, filthy racist who was slighting the President of the United States, because he was an African-American. Everybody knows if George Bush had been in Power and not Barack Obama, Mr. Netanyahu would never dared carried that stunt. He did it because he’s a Jewish Supremacist. He’s a racist.
11.   Lavelle: I want fair time. Gil, if you want to react, jump in. That’s the point of the programme.
12.   Hoffman: That’s just crazy, everything he’s said. Not a single word was right. Israeli are not racist. We took Africans from Africa and brought them into our Country and made them a part of our Government.
13.   Finkelstein: Into concentration camp.
14.   Hoffman: And made them our lawyers and our judges. The country that’s racist that brought blacks to their Country as Slaves is America. There are as just as many blacks in the Knesset as there are in the Senate.
15.   Lavelle: Just to clarify. Let’s clarify, though, okay? Let’s be honest. Let’s stay with the facts here. That’s the vision of Israel you accept there, but the Settlements that are being built in the Occupied Territories for Jews and Jews only.
16.     Hoffman: Before you get to the Settlement, I was supposed to – Can you answer that question? Can you just answer my question? Can you answer that question? – given an opportunity to response to Norman, who accused my Prime Minister of going to Congress. I’m going to answer your last question before we get to the Settlement, which is an important topic, and I’m looking forward to discussing it with you. Netanyahu went to Washington in order to wake up the World against an Iranian nuclear Threat that poses a Threat to Israel and the United States and the international Community. That speech was effective in making sure that the international Community will subject that Agreement to a greater scrutiny.
  Now about what Norman said about the Knesset, about the support in Israel for the Palestinian State, okay? We just elected the Knesset two days ago. In that Knesset, the number of the Parties that are against the Palestinian State is eight. Eight out of 120. Those are the numbers. It can’t be denied. There was a Party further to the right, called [some Hebrew], that was vehemently against the Palestinian State. How much seat did they get in this new Knesset? Zero. That’s Israel.
17.   Lavelle: Norman, do you want to react quickly before we go to the break?
18.   Finkelstein: Here we have another example of the Israeli connexion with Reality or how tenuous it is. He’s now telling us, after Mr. Netanyahu ran on the platform which explicitly said No to a Palestinian State and won with what’s been called now an overwhelming victory in Israel, we now have Mr. Gil Hoffman come on your programme and tell us that the opposition to a Palestinian State is “Zero” in Israel. That’s what he’s telling you.
19.   Hoffman: That’s not what I said.
20.   Finkelstein: The opposition to a Palestinian State.
21.     Lavelle: Gentlemen, we’ll have to continue this in the second part of the programme. We’re going to a short break, and after that short break, we’ll continue our Discussion on the Israeli Election. Stay with RT. [Very noisy music] Welcome back to CrossTalk, where all things are considered. I’m Peter Lavelle. To remind you, we’re discussing Election outcome in Israel. [Very noisy music]
  Gil, I’d like to go back to the topic I’d mentioned in the programme in the first part, that’s the Settlement. And this is something the international Community, very broadly the international Community, is concerned with. Every single year, we have a vote at the UN General Assembly, and we have growing support in Europe and the elements in the United States saying that Israel can’t have both ways now. So you fully expect, based on what you’ve said so far on the programme, that Binyamin Netanyahu is going to be like Nixon going to China after all these years and come up with a Peace settlement.
22.   Hoffman: That’s not what I said.
23.   Lavelle: I’m suggesting. Go ahead.
24.   Hoffman: What I said was: Netanyahu is still in favour of the two States for the two Peoples. The current Reality in which the ISIS is taking over a Land area 20 times the size of Israel does not permit the concessions to be made on the Israeli side. The Palestinians are not interested in coming to the negotiating table and talking to Israel. Israel was talking to them. They left the negotiating table and went made a deal with the Hamas, which is recognised by the EU, the US and the Countries around the World as a terrorist Organisation. It’s no doubt that Israeli would like to continue talking to them if they would come back to the table. There’s no indications that they will. And when they come to the table, of course, one of the things that is going to be decided is where the final Borders are going to be.
25.   Finkelstein: You know, Gil.
26.   Hoffman: Then there will be Jews on one side and Arabs on the other.
27.   Finkelstein: Gil.
28.   Hoffman: Except on the Jewish side.
29.   Finkelstein: Gil.
30.   Hoffman: There will be Arab minority that will be protected, on the Arab side, there will not be a single Jew.
31.   Lavelle: Okay, all right. Go ahead, Norman, jump right in.
32.   Finkelstein: Gil.
33.   Lavelle: I almost wanted to ban the term Peace process here, because it’s gotten nowhere for decades. Go ahead, Norman.
34.   Finkelstein: [Mnemotechnique] {Gil}, you’re really embarrassing yourself. This is not {Israel}. You’re on a programme which is broadcasted to the entire World. How can you be saying the things that you’re now uttering on this programme? The Palestinians don’t want to negotiate. It’s the Palestinians that are the obstacle. You know full well that your Prime Minister said No to a Palestinian State. You know full well that the Israeli Electorate, using the Language of Israel now, overwhelmingly voted for that Prime Minister. You know full well the PA has been trying desperately to find a two State settlement for the conflict, now about 30 or 40 years, before the PA, the PLO. Already far back as 1976-78, the Palestinians were trying to negotiate that settlement. You know full well that Israel is the obstacle not because the [Kikes] are Evil. It’s a very simple fact.
  Israel has a cost-free Occupation. The Europeans pay the bills in the West Bank. The Palestinians do the dirty Work, it imprisons the Palestinians, it tortures the Palestinians, that’s called Security cooperation. And the US protects Israel at the UN and other international forums. So why should the Israelis withdraw? They get to have their cake. They build these luxurious [kike] Communities in the Occupied Palestinian Territories, stealing the Water resources, stealing a lot of the arable Palestinian Land. They get to relocate with Government subsidies in the Occupied Palestinian Territories, and they lose nothing. It’s a cost-free Occupation. It’s probably the first cost-free Occupation in the History of Humanity. So why should the Israelis withdraw? There’s only one way to bring about a two States settlement. That’s to make the Israelis pay the price for the illegal, Immoral and [motherfucking] inhuman Occupation of the Palestinian Territory that now has gone on for nearly half a century.
35.   Lavelle: Gil, do you want to react to that? Because the mantra about the conflict is a two State solution. That has been with us for a very long time, based on the 1967 Border. But when we have winds coming out of the EU, they’ve had enough of this charade going on. Norman has said this is cost-free Occupation. Do you think those things are going to come to a end, or we can just keep going the status quo?
36.   Hoffman: I think it all depends on the Palestinian leadership. While the Israeli Arabs are voting in drubs, it’s part of our Democracy. Their Palestinian brothers are jealous of them, because they have not had an Election since January 2005. It’s not because of Israel. It’s because the Palestinian leadership that doesn’t want to have a democratic Election and the international Community that has not encouraged it. Abbas was elected in January 2005 to a four-year term. He’s now been in Power for more than 10 years. He turns eighty next week. And People who are eighty don’t change their spots. They’re not going to come to a table and start giving things up. In September 2008, Israel leader, Ehud Omer, a left-ring leader, offered the Palestinians 100% of the West Bank with Land swaps, offered to take in thousands of Palestinian refugees, even though there are a lot more Jews expulsed from the neighbouring Muslim Countries, when Israeli created the Arabs who fled in 1948 when the Jewish State was created, and he offered to divide the Jerusalem, have the Arabs in the Jerusalem the Capitol of the Palestinian State and take the old city of Jerusalem and internationalise it into five Countries: the United States; the Palestinian State; Israel; Jordan; Saudi Arabia. That was what the Prime Minister of Israel offered to the Palestinians in September 2008. Had they accepted it, it would have gone to the UN General Assembly where every [State] in the World would have voted for it. They missed that opportunity. The reason why we don’t have a deal is because we keep on having these Palestinian leaders who let their People down.
37.   Lavelle: Okay, they let them down. Norman, do you want to react to that historical exposé we just heard there?
38.     Finkelstein: The problem with Mr. Hoffman is he counts on the ignorance of your viewers. I’m sorry to report to you, Mr. Hoffman, I’m fully cognisant of the record, and now I’m going to go through it.
  Number one: He did not offer 100% of the West Bank. He wanted to keep what’s now called 8.7% of the West Bank or what’s effectively the major Settlement blocks.
39.   Hoffman: I said, Land swaps.
40.   Finkelstein: About 8.7% of the West Bank, including the major Settlement blocks, which would include the critical Water resources going to Israel. Some of the most arable Land would go to Israel.
41.   Hoffman: There’s already an Agreement on the Water that was worked out.
42.   Finkelstein: Palestinian State would be bisected at the north. It would also be bisected at its waist with the Settlement ** stretching from Jerusalem to Jericho.
  You say he offered to take thousands of refugees. Let’s see exactly what he offered. He offered to take back 5,000 refugees. Now, there are 5-6 million Palestinians refugees. He offered to take back 5,000 refugees; 1,000 refugees each year over 5 year period under what’s called the Family Unification. In fact, that offer was made informally, and Omer was already going out of office because of Corruption scandal, [Henry Siegman] so there was no possibility that that offer totally unsatisfactory, totally unacceptable, but even that unsatisfactory-
43.   Hoffman: You won’t be satisfied until there’s no Jewish State at all. I know you. I know your History.
44.   Finkelstein: Mr. Hoffman, if you know me, as you claim to know me, you would know I’m very conservative on this question. I support the International Law, two States based on the 67 Border with Just solution of the refugee question. That’s what the UN General Assembly, about 165 members, say each year. That’s what the ICJ says.
45.   Hoffman: If you have millions of refugees coming from all over the World, there is no Jewish State.
46.   Lavelle: Gentlemen, no, no, no. We’re rapidly running out of time here. Gil, if I can go back to you. Do you foresee a kissing and making-up with Tel-Aviv and Washington, particularly with Mr. Obama?
47.   Hoffman: I see American People supporting Israel. All the polls do.
48.   Lavelle: Can you answer the question about Obama? Can you answer the question about Obama, please?
49.   Hoffman: I’m answering the question. You interrupted me.
50.   Lavelle: Yes, but I’m asking about Obama.
51.   Hoffman: The answer to the question about Obama is No. The answer to the question about Obama is No. Obama has decided to try to put pressure on Netanyahu, that’s not something that Netanyahu is going to accept, but as soon as Obama is gone, Things are going to get better.
52.   Lavelle: Norman, what do you say to that? Or does it matter to the Palestinians what relationship there is?
53.   Finkelstein: There is another example of the Israeli mindset. Mr. Obama tries to put a pressure on Netanyahu. Mr. Obama, along with five permanent members of the UN Security Council + Germany [P5+1], has been trying to negotiate a diplomatic settlement with Iran. There are two Countries in the World who oppose that diplomatic settlement. Two [motherfucking] lunatic Countries that want to go to War.
54.   Hoffman: Canada and Australia? Laughter of Lavelle.
55.   Finkelstein: They are the Wahhabi jihadis in Saudi Arabia and the [fucking sheeny] jihadis in Israel. Those are the bookends.
56.   Hoffman: And Egypt and the Gulf States?
57.   Finkelstein: Saudi Arabia and Israel want to go to War. The rest of the World wants diplomatic settlement. And then Mr. Netanyahu barges in on the US Congress in order to humiliate Mr. Obama. Mr. Hoffman, again, I’m not a flag-waver. But do you really think the American People need Mr. Netanyahu to hold up his Looney Tune, Daffy Duck cartoons to explain to us about Diplomacy with Iran? Excuse me, but we’re smart enough to figure it out by ourselves.
58.   Hoffman: I know the polls about America. 70 percent of America are in support of Netanyahu’s position on Iran, not Obama’s.
59.   Finkelstein: Without Mr. Netanyahu’s Looney Tune cartoons?
60.   Lavelle: Gentlemen, we’ve run out of time. Most Americans do support the two States solution. Many thanks to my guests in New York and in Jerusalem. And thanks to our viewers for watching us here on RT. See you next time, and remember CrossTalk rules.

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