Goodman: For reaction to the WikiLeaks
documents, we’re joined now by world-renowned political dissident and linguist
Noam Chomsky, Professor Emeritus at Massachusetts Institute of Technology,
author of over a hundred books, including his latest, Hopes and Prospects. Well,
40 years ago, Noam and the late historian Howard Zinn helped government
whistleblower Daniel Ellsberg edit and release the Pentagon Papers, the
top-secret internal U.S. history of the Vietnam War. Noam Chomsky joins us now
from Boston. It’s good to have you back again, Noam. Why don’t we start there,
before we talk about WikiLeaks. What was your involvement with the Pentagon
Papers? I don’t think most people know about this.
2. Chomsky: Dan and I were friends. Tony Russo also, who also who prepared them and helped leak them. And I got advanced copies from Dan and Tony, and there were several people who were releasing them to the press. I was one of them. And then I, along with Howard Zinn, as you mentioned, edited a volume of essays in an index to the Papers.
3. Goodman: So, explain, though, how it worked. And I always think this is important, to tell this story, especially for young people. Dan Ellsberg, Pentagon official, top-secret clearance, gets this U.S. involvement in Vietnam history out of his safe. He xeroxes it. And then, how did you get your hands on it? He just directly gave it to you?
4. Chomsky: From Dan and — Dan Ellsberg and Tony Russo, who had done the xeroxing and the preparation of the material, yes, directly.
Goodman: [inaudible] exactly did you edit?
Chomsky: Well, we didn’t modify anything. The
Papers were not edited. They’re just in their original form. What Howard Zinn and I did was — they came out in four
volumes. We prepared a fifth volume, which is critical essays by many scholars
on the Papers, what they mean, their significance and so on, and an index,
which is almost indispensable for using them seriously. That’s the fifth
volume in the Beacon Press series.
Goodman: So you were then one of the first
people to see the Pentagon Papers.
Chomsky: Outside of Dan Ellsberg and Tony
Russo, yes. I mean, there were some journalists who may have seen them. I’m not
9. Goodman: So, what are your thoughts today, as — for example, we just played this clip of New York Republican Congress member Peter King, who says WikiLeaks should be declared a foreign terrorist organization?
10. Chomsky: I think that’s outlandish. The materials — we should understand — and the Pentagon Papers is another case in point — that one of the major reasons for government secrecy is to protect the government from its own population. In the Pentagon Papers, for example, there was one volume, the negotiations volume, which might have had bearing on ongoing activities, and Dan Ellsberg withheld that. That came out a little bit later. But if you look at the Papers themselves, there are things that Americans should have known that the government didn’t want them to know. And as far as I can tell, from what I’ve seen here, pretty much the same is true. In fact, the current leaks are — what I’ve seen, at least — primarily interesting because of what they tell us about how the diplomatic service works.
11. Goodman: The documents’ revelations about Iran come just as the Iranian government has agreed to a new round of nuclear talks beginning next month. On Monday, Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu said the cables vindicate the Israeli position that Iran poses a nuclear threat. Netanyahu said, quote, “Our region has been hostage to a narrative that is the result of 60 years of propaganda, which paints Israel as the greatest threat. In reality, leaders understand that that view is bankrupt. For the first time in history, there is agreement that Iran is the threat. If leaders start saying openly what they have long been saying behind closed doors, we can make a real breakthrough on the road to peace,” Netanyahu said. Secretary of State Hillary Clinton also discussed Iran at her news conference in Washington. This is what she said.
12. HillaryClinton: I think that it should not be a surprise to anyone that Iran is a source of great concern, not only in the United States, that what comes through in every meeting that I have, anywhere in the world, is a concern about Iranian actions and intentions. So, if anything, any of the comments that are being reported on allegedly from the cables confirm the fact that Iran poses a very serious threat in the eyes of many of her neighbors and a serious concern far beyond her region. That is why the international community came together to pass the strongest possible sanctions against Iran. It did not happen because the United States went out and said, “Please do this for us.” It happened because countries, once they evaluated the evidence concerning Iran’s actions and intentions, reached the same conclusion that the United States reached, that we must do whatever we can to muster the international community to take action to prevent Iran from becoming a nuclear weapons state. So, if anyone reading the stories about these alleged cables thinks carefully, what they will conclude is that the concern about Iran is well founded, widely shared, and will continue to be at the source of the policy that we pursue with like-minded nations to try to prevent Iran from acquiring nuclear weapons.
Goodman: That was Secretary to Hillary
Clinton yesterday at a news conference. I wanted to get your comment on
Clinton, Netanyahu’s comment, and the fact that Abdullah of Saudi Arabia, the
King, who’s now getting back surgery in the New York, called for the U.S. to
attack Iran. Noam Chomsky?
14. Chomsky: That essentially reinforces what I said before, that the main significance of the cables that have been released so far is what they tell us about Western leadership. So, Hillary Clinton and Binyamin Netanyahu surely know of the careful polls of Arab public opinion. The Brookings Institute just a few months ago released extensive polls of what Arabs think about Iran. And the results are rather striking. They show that Arab opinion does — holds that the major threat in the region is Israel, that’s 80 percent; the second major threat is the United States, that’s 77 percent. Iran is listed as a threat by 10 percent. With regard to nuclear weapons, rather remarkably, a majority, in fact, 57 percent, say that the region will be — it would have a positive effect in the region if Iran had nuclear weapons. Now, these are not small numbers. Eighty percent, 77 percent say that the U.S. and Israel are the major threat. Ten percent say that Iran is the major threat. Now, this may not be reported in the newspapers here — it is in England — but it’s certainly familiar to the Israeli and the U.S. governments and to the ambassadors. But there isn’t a word about it anywhere. What that reveals is the profound hatred for democracy on the part of our political leadership and, of course, the Israeli political leadership. These things aren’t even to be mentioned. And this seeps its way all through the diplomatic service. So the cables don’t have any indication of that. When they talk about Arabs, they mean the Arab dictators, not the population, which is overwhelmingly opposed to the conclusions that the analysts here, Clinton and the media, have drawn. There’s also a minor problem. That’s the major problem. The minor problem is that we don’t know from the cables what the Arab leaders think and say. We know what was selected from the range of what they say. So there’s a filtering process. We don’t know how much it distorts the information. But there’s no question that what is a radical distortion is — or not even a distortion, a reflection of the concern that the dictators are what matter. The population doesn’t matter, even if it’s overwhelmingly opposed to U.S. policy. This shows up elsewhere. There are similar things elsewhere. So, just keeping to this region, one of the most interesting cables was a cable from the U.S. ambassador in Israel to Hillary Clinton, which described the attack on Gaza, which we should call a U.S.-Israeli attack on Gaza, December 2008. It states that — correctly, that there had been a truce. It does not add that during the truce, which was really not observed by Israel, but during the truce, Hamas scrupulously observed it. According to the Israeli government, not a single rocket was fired. That’s an omission. But then comes a straight lie: it says that in December 2008, Hamas renewed rocket firing, and therefore Israel had to attack in self-defense. Now, the ambassador surely is aware
— there must be somebody
in the American embassy who reads the Israeli press, the mainstream Israeli
press, in which case the embassy is surely aware that it’s exactly the
opposite: Hamas was calling for a renewal of the ceasefire. Israel considered
the offer and rejected it, preferring to bomb rather than to have security.
Also omitted is that while Israel never observed the ceasefire, it maintained
the siege in violation of the truce agreement. On November 4th, the U.S. election, 2008, the Israeli army entered Gaza,
killed — invaded Gaza and killed half a dozen Hamas militants, which did lead
to an exchange of fire, in which all the casualties, as usual, are Palestinian.
Then in December, Hamas — when the truce officially ended, Hamas called for
renewing it. Israel refused, and the U.S. and Israel chose to launch the war.
What the embassy reported is a gross falsification and a very significant one,
since it has to do with the justification for this murderous attack, which
means either the embassy hasn’t a clue what’s going on or else they’re lying
15. Goodman: And the latest report that just came out from Oxfam, from Amnesty International and other groups about the effects of the siege on Gaza, what’s happening right now?
16. Chomsky: A siege is an act of war. If anyone insists on that, it’s Israel. Israel launched two wars, ‘56 and ‘67, in part on grounds that its access to the outside world was very partially restricted. That very partial siege they considered an act of war and so justification for — one of several justifications for what they call “preventive” or, if you like, preemptive war. So they understand that perfectly well, and the point is correct. The siege is a criminal act, in the first place. The Security Council has called on Israel to lift it. Others have. It’s designed to, as Israeli officials have stated, to keep the people of Gaza to a minimal level of existence. They don’t want to kill them all off, because that wouldn’t look good in international opinion, but, as they put it, “to keep them on a diet.” The justification — this began very shortly after the official Israeli withdrawal. There was an election in January 2006, actually the only free election in the Arab world, carefully monitored, recognized to be free. But it had a flaw: the wrong people won. And the U.S. — namely, Hamas, which the U.S. didn’t want and Israel didn’t want. Instantly, within days, the U.S. and Israel instituted harsh measures to punish the people of Gaza for voting the wrong way in a free election. The next step was that they, the U.S. and Israel, sought to, along with the Palestinian Authority, try to carry out a military coup in Gaza to overthrow the elected government. This failed. Hamas beat back the coup attempt. That was July 2007. At that point, the siege got much harsher. In between, there were many acts of violence and shellings, invasions and so on and so forth. But the basic — Israel claims that when the truce was established in the summer 2008, Israel’s reason for not observing it, withdrawing the siege, was that there’s an Israeli soldier, Gilad Shalit, who was captured at the border. And this is — you know, international commentary regards this as a terrible crime. Well, whatever you think about it, capturing a soldier of an attacking army — and the army was attacking Gaza — capturing a soldier of an attacking army isn’t anywhere near the level of crime of kidnapping civilians. Just one day before the capture of Gilad Shalit at the border, Israeli troops had entered Gaza, kidnapped two civilians, the Muamar brothers, spirited them across the border. They’ve disappeared somewhere in Israel’s prison system, which is — there are hundreds, maybe a thousand or so, people sometimes there for years without charges. There are also secret prisons. We don’t know what happens there. This alone is a far worse crime than the kidnapping of Shalit. And in fact, you could argue that there was a reason why it was barely covered. Israel has been doing this for years, in fact decades — kidnapping, capturing people, hijacking ships, killing people, bringing them to Israel sometimes as hostages for many years. So it’s regular practice. But the — Israel can do what it likes.
But the reaction
here and in the rest of the world of regarding the Shalit kidnapping — not
kidnapping, you don’t kidnap soldiers — the capture of a soldier as an
unspeakable crime, a justification for maintaining a murderous siege, that’s
17. Goodman: Noam, so you have Amnesty International, Oxfam, Save the Children, eighteen other aid groups calling on Israel to unconditionally lift the blockade of Gaza. You have in the WikiLeaks release a U.S. diplomatic cable, provided to The Guardian by WikiLeaks, laying out, quote, “national human intelligence collection directive” asking U.S. personnel to obtain “details of travel plans such as routes and vehicles used by Palestinian Authority leaders and HAMAS members.” The cable demands “biographical, financial, biometric information on key PA and Hamas leaders and representatives, to include the young huard inside Gaza, the West Bank and outside,” it says.
18. Chomsky: That should not come as much of a surprise. Contrary to the image that’s portrayed here, the United States is not an honest broker.
It’s a participant
in — a direct, crucial participant in Israeli crimes, both in the West Bank and
in Gaza . The attack in
Gaza was a clear case in point: used American weapons, the U.S. blocked
ceasefire efforts, gave diplomatic support. The same is true of the daily
ongoing crimes in the West Bank. We shouldn’t forget that. Actually, in Area C, the area of the West Bank that
Israel controls, conditions for Palestinians have been reported by Save the
Children to be worse than in Gaza. And again, this all takes place because of —
on the basis of crucial, decisive, U.S. military, diplomatic, economic support,
and also ideological support, meaning distorting the situation, as is done
again dramatically in the cables. The siege itself is simply criminal. It’s not
only blocking desperately needed aid from coming in, it also drives
Palestinians away from the border. Gaza is a small place, heavily, densely
overcrowded. And Israeli fire and attacks drive Palestinians away from the
arable land on the border and also drive fishermen in from Gazan territorial
waters. They’re compelled by Israeli gunboats — all illegal, of course — to
fish right near the shore, where fishing is almost impossible because Israel
has destroyed the power systems and sewage systems and the contamination is
terrible. This is just a stranglehold to punish people
for being there and for insisting on voting the wrong way and for just refusing
— Israel wants — they decided, “We don’t want this anymore. Let’s just get rid
of them.” We should also remember that U.S.-Israeli policy, since Oslo, since
early ‘90s, has been to separate Gaza from the West Bank. Now that’s in straight violation of the Oslo agreements,
but it’s been carried out systematically, and it has a big effect. It
means almost half the Palestinian population would be cut off from any possible
political arrangement that would ever be made. It also means that Palestine
loses its access to the outside world. Gaza should have and can have airports
and seaports. And the West Bank, what’s being left — I mean, right now Israel
has taken over about 40 percent of the West Bank. Obama’s latest offers granted
even more, and they’re certainly planning to take more. And what’s left is just
cantonized. It’s what the planner, Ariel Sharon, called Bantustans. And they’re
imprisoned, too, as Israel takes over the Jordan Valley, drives Palestinians
out. So, these are all crimes of a piece. The Gaza
siege is particularly grotesque because of the conditions under which people
are forced to live. I mean, if a young
person in Gaza, a student in Gaza, let’s say, wants to study in a West Bank
university, they can’t do it. If a person in Gaza needs advanced medical treatment
from an East Jerusalem hospital where the training is available, they can’t go.
Medicines are held back. I mean, it’s a scandalous crime all around
Goodman: What do you think the United States
should do in this case?
20. Chomsky: What the United States should do is very simple: it should join the world. I mean, there are negotiations going on, supposedly. They’re presented here as — the standard picture is the U.S. is an honest broker trying to bring together two recalcitrant opponents — Israel, Palestinian Authority. That’s just a charade. I mean, if there were serious negotiations, they would be organized by some neutral party, and the U.S. and Israel would be on one side, and the world would be on the other side. And that is not an exaggeration. It shouldn’t be a secret that there has long been an overwhelming international consensus on a diplomatic political solution. Everyone knows the basic outline. Some details, you can argue about. And it includes everyone except the United States and Israel. The U.S. has been blocking it for 35 years, with occasional departures, brief ones. It includes the Arab League. It includes the Organization of Islamic States, which happens to include Iran. It includes every relevant actor except the United States and Israel, the two rejectionist states. So if there were to be negotiations that were serious, that’s the way they would be organized. The actual negotiations barely reach the level of comedy. The issue that’s being debated is a footnote, minor footnote: expansion of settlements. Of course it’s illegal. In fact, everything that Israel is doing in the West Bank and Gaza is illegal. That’s been —- it hasn’t even been controversial since 1967 -—
Goodman: Noam, we have to break, but —
22. Chomsky: — when Israel’s own highest legal — yes.
Goodman: We’re going to come back to this in
a minute. Noam Chomsky, author and Institute Professor Emeritus at MIT, as we
talk about WikiLeaks and the state of the world today. This is Democracy Now!
Back in a minute.
Goodman: Our guest is Noam Chomsky,
world-renowned dissident, author of more than a hundred books, speaking to us
from Boston. Noam, you wrote a piece after the midterm elections called “Outrage Misguided.” I want to read for you now
what Sarah Palin tweeted, the former Alaskan governor, of course, and
Republication vice-presidential nominee. This is what she tweeted about
WikiLeaks. Rather, she put it on Facebook. She said, “First and foremost, what
steps were taken to stop WikiLeaks director Julian Assange from distributing
this highly sensitive classified material especially after he had already
published material not once but twice in the previous months? Assange is not a ‘journalist,’
any more than the ‘editor’ of the al Qaeda’s new English-language magazine
Inspire is a ‘journalist.’ He is an anti-American operative with blood on his
hands. His past posting of classified documents revealed the identity of more
than 100 Afghan sources to the Taliban. Why was he not pursued with the same
urgency we pursue al Qaeda and Taliban leaders?” Noam Chomsky, your response?
26. Chomsky: That’s pretty much what I would expect Sarah Palin to say. I don’t know how much she understands, but I think we should pay attention to what we learn from the leaks. What we learn, for example, is the kinds of things I’ve said. The most — perhaps the most dramatic revelation is the — I’ve already mentioned — the bitter hatred of democracy that is revealed both by the U.S. government — Hillary Clinton, others — and also by the diplomatic service. To tell the world, to tell — they’re talking to each other — to pretend to each other that the Arab world regards Iran as the major threat and wants the U.S. to bomb Iran is extremely revealing, when they know that approximately 80 percent of Arab opinion regards the U.S. and Israel as the major threat, 10 percent regard Iran as the major threat, and a majority, 57 percent, think the region would be better off with Iranian nuclear weapons as a kind of deterrent. That doesn’t even enter. All that enters is what they claim has been said by Arab dictators, brutal Arab dictators. That’s what counts. How representative this is of what they say, we don’t know, because we don’t know what the filtering is. But that’s a minor point. The major point is that the population is irrelevant. All that matters is the opinions of the dictators that we support. And if they were to back us, that’s the Arab world. That’s a very revealing picture of the mentality of U.S. political leadership, and presumably elite opinion. Judging by the commentary that’s appeared here, that’s the way it’s been presented in the press, as well.
Goodman: Your piece —
Chomsky: It doesn’t matter with the Arabs
believe. Yeah, sorry.
29. Goodman: Your piece, “Outrage Misguided,” back to the midterm elections and what we’re going to see now — can you talk about the Tea Party movement?
30. Chomsky: Well, the Tea Party movement itself is maybe 15, 20 percent of the electorate. It’s relatively affluent, white, nativist. You know, it has rather traditional nativist streaks to it. But what is much more important, I think, is the — is its outrage. I mean, over half the population says they more or less support it or support its message. And what people are thinking is extremely interesting. I mean, overwhelmingly, polls reveal that people are extremely bitter, angry, hostile, opposed to everything. The primary cause undoubtedly is the economic disaster. It’s not just a financial catastrophe, it’s an economic disaster. I mean, in manufacturing industry, for example, unemployment levels are at the level of the Great Depression. And unlike the Great Depression, those jobs are not coming back. U.S. owners and managers have long ago made the decision that they can make more profit with complicated financial deals than by production. So, finance — this goes back to the ‘70s, mainly Reagan escalated it, and onward — Clinton, too. The economy has been financialized. Financial institutions have grown enormously in their share of corporate profits. It may be something like a third or something like that today. At the same time, correspondingly, production has been exported. So you buy some electronic device from China. China is an assembly plant for a Northeast Asian production center. The parts and components come from the more advanced countries, and from the United States, and the technology. So, yes, that’s a cheap place to assemble things, sell them back here. And it’s, you know, rather similar in Mexico, Vietnam and so on. That’s the way to make profits. It destroys the society here, but that’s not the concern of the ownership class and the managerial class. Their concern is profit. That’s what drives the economy. And the rest of it is a fallout. People are extremely bitter about it but don’t seem to understand it. So, the same people who are a majority, who say that Wall Street is to blame for the current crisis, are voting Republican. Both parties are deep in the pockets of Wall Street, but the Republicans much more so than the Democrats. And the same is true on issue after issue. So the antagonism to everyone is extremely high. Actually, antagonism — they don’t like — population doesn’t like Democrats, but they hate Republicans even more. They’re against big business. They’re against government. They’re against Congress. They’re against science.
We only have 30 seconds, Noam. Noam,
we only have 30 seconds. I wanted ask if you were President Obama’s top
adviser, what would you tell him to do right now?
32. Chomsky: I would tell him to do what FDR did when big business was opposed to him: help, organize, stimulate public opposition and put through a serious populist program, which can be done. Stimulate the economy. Don’t give away everything to financiers. Push through real health reform. The health reform that was pushed through may be a slight improvement, but it leaves the major problem untouched. If you’re worried about the deficit, pay attention to the fact that it’s almost all attributable to military spending and the totally dysfunctional health program.
Goodman: We’re going to leave it there, but
we’ll continue the conversation after and post it online at democracynow.org.
I’m Amy Goodman. Thanks so much for joining us.
Goodman: Noam, you’re continuing your
prescription, your advice that you would give to President Obama today.
35. Chomsky: Well, the economy is a disaster. There is 10 percent official unemployment, probably twice that much actual unemployment. Many people unemployed for years. This is a huge human tragedy, but it’s also an economic tragedy. These are unused resources, which could be producing to make the things that this country needs. I mean, the United States is becoming a kind of a third world country. You take a — the other day, I took a train from Boston to New York. That’s, you know, the star of the trains of Amtrak, train system. I mean, it took about maybe 20 minutes less than the train that my wife and I took 60 years ago from Boston to New York. In any European country, any industrial country, it would have taken half the time. Plenty of non-industrial countries. Spain is not a super-rich country. It’s just introducing a 200-mile-an-hour new railway. And this is just one example. The United States desperately needs many things: decent infrastructure, a decent educational system, much more pay and support for teachers, all kinds of things. And the policies that are being carried out are designed to enrich primarily financial institutions. And remember that many of the major corporations like, say, GE and GM are also financial institutions. It’s a large part of their activity. It’s very unclear that these financial shenanigans do anything for the economy. There are some economists finally, mainstream ones, finally beginning to raise this question. They may harm it, in fact. But what they do is enrich rich people, and that’s where policies are directed to. An alternative would be to stimulate the economy. There is no — demand is very low. Business — the corporations have money coming out of their ears, their huge profits. But they don’t want to spend it, don’t want to invest it. They’d rather profit from it. Financial institutions don’t produce anything. They just shift money around and make money from various deals. The public is some consumer demand, but it’s very slight. We have to remember that there was an $8 trillion housing bubble that burst, destroying the assets for most people. They’re desperately trying to keep a little to save themselves. The only source of demand right now would be government spending. It doesn’t even have to affect the deficit, can be carried out by borrowing by the Fed, which sends interest right back to the Treasury. If anyone cares about the deficit, which is actually a minor issue, I think, that should be the major issue. There should be massive infrastructure spending. There should be spending on things — simple things like weatherization. I mean, we should have a substantial program to reduce the very severe threat of global warming. That’s unfortunately unlikely with the new Republican legislators and with the effects of the massive corporate propaganda to try to convince people that it’s a liberal hoax. The latest polls show about maybe a third of Americans think that —- believe in anthropogenic global warming, you know, human contribution to global warming. I mean, that’s almost a death knell for the species. If the U.S. doesn’t do anything, nobody else will. We now have chairs going into the -—
36. Goodman: Noam, what do you think of the U.N. climate change summit that’s taking place in Cancún?
37. Chomsky: Well, the Copenhagen summit was a disaster. Nothing happened. This one, Cancún, has set its sights much lower, in the hope of at least achieving something. But let’s say they achieve all their goals, which is very unlikely. It’ll still be a toothpick on a mountain. There are much more serious problems behind it. We’re now facing a situation where the House, relevant House committees — science, technology, energy and so on — are being taken over by climate change deniers. In fact, one of them recently said, “We don’t have to worry about it, because God will take care of it.” Well, you know, this is — it’s unbelievable that this is happening in the richest, most powerful country in the world. That’s one major area where there should be substantial changes and improvements. If not, there’s not going to be anything much more to talk about in a generation or two. Others include just reconstructing the economy here so that people get back to work, that they can produce things that the country needs, that they can live decent lives. All of that can be done. The resources are there; the policies aren’t.
38. Goodman: Noam, you know, when you look at the new Congress — I’m reading from The New Yorker, “Darrell Issa, a Republican representative from California, is one of the richest men in Congress. He made his money selling car alarms, which is interesting, because he has twice been accused of auto theft. ([Issa has] said that he had a ‘colorful youth.’) Now, with the Republicans about to take control of the House, Issa is poised to become [the chairman] of the Oversight Committee. The post comes with wide-ranging subpoena powers, and Issa has already indicated how he plans to wield them. He is not, he assured a group of Pennsylvania Republicans over the summer, interested in digging around for the sort of information that might embarrass his fellow-zillionaires: [he said,] ‘I won’t use it to have corporate America live in fear.’ Instead, he wants to go where he sees the real malfeasance. He wants to investigate climate scientists. At the top of his list are the long-suffering researchers whose e-mails were hacked last year from the computer system of Britain’s University of East Anglia. Though their work has been the subject of three separate ‘Climategate’ inquiries — all of which found that allegations of data manipulation were unfounded — Issa isn’t satisfied. [He said recently,] ‘We’re going to want to have a do-over.’”
39. Chomsky: Yeah. That’s part of the massive offensive, basically a corporate offensive. And they haven’t been quiet about it, like the Chamber of Commerce, biggest business lobby, American Petroleum Institute and others have said quite publicly that they’re carrying out a massive, what they call “educational campaign” to convince the population that global warming isn’t real. And it’s having an effect. You can see it even in the way the media present it. So you read, say, a New York Times discussion of climate change. They have to be objective, present both sides, so one side is 98 percent of qualified scientists, and the other side is Issa and Senator Inhofe and a couple of climate change skeptics. There, notice, also missing is a third side, namely, a very substantial number of leading scientists who say that the consensus is nowhere near alarmist enough, that in fact the situation is much worse. Well, you know, the United States is now — it has been dragging its feet on this for a long time, and it’s now much worse. I mean, there was just recently — a couple days ago, there was a report of an analysis of green technology production. It turns out China is in the lead, Germany is next, Spain is high up there. The United States is one of the lowest. In fact, investment from the United States in green technology is higher in China — I think twice as high in China — than in the United States — than it is in the United States and Europe combined. I mean, these are real social pathologies, exacerbated by the latest election, but just one aspect of where policy is going totally in the wrong direction, where there are significant alternatives, and if they’re not pursued, there could be real disaster, and maybe not too far off.
40. Goodman: I’d like to switch gears for a minute, Noam Chomsky, and talk about the elections in Haiti that just took place.
41. Chomsky: “Elections,” you should put in quotation marks. If we had elections in the United States in which the Democratic and Republican parties were barred and their political leaders were exiled to South Africa and not allowed to return to the United States, we wouldn’t consider them serious elections. But that’s exactly what happened in Haiti. The major political party is barred. As we know, the United States and France essentially invaded Haiti in 2004, kidnapped the president, sent him off to Central Africa. His party is now banned. Most analysts assume that, as in the past, if it was allowed to run, it would probably win the election. President — or former President Aristide is, by all information available, the most popular political figure in Haiti. Not only is he not allowed to run, by essentially the U.S., but not allowed to return. They’ve been trying to keep him out of the hemisphere. Can’t go back to Haiti, but the U.S. has been trying to keep him out of the hemisphere altogether. What’s taken place is a kind of a charade. I mean, it’s not nothing. You know, Haitians are trying to express themselves. We should respect that. But the major choices that they might have are barred by foreign power, U.S. power, and France, which is the second of the two historic torturers of Haiti.
42. Goodman: Honduras. Actually, interestingly, in these cables that have come out through the WikiLeaks release is a U.S. diplomatic cable from 2008 that says exactly what the U.S. government would not say publicly, that the coup against Manuel Zelaya was outright illegal. Your response, Noam Chomsky?
43. Chomsky: Yeah, that’s right. This is an analysis by the embassy in Honduras, Tegucigalpa, saying that they’ve done a careful analysis of the legal and constitutional backgrounds and conclude — you can read their summary, which is a conclusion — that there is no doubt that the coup was illegal and unconstitutional. The government of Washington, as you point out, wouldn’t say that. And in fact, after some dithering, Obama finally essentially recognized the legitimacy of the coup. He supported the election taking place under the coup regime, which most of Latin America and Europe refused to recognize at all. But the U.S. did it. In fact, the U.S. ambassador publicly accused the Latin Americans who wouldn’t go along as being seduced by magic realism, you know, García Márquez’s novels or something, just a statement of contempt. They should go along with us and support the military coup, which is illegal and unconstitutional. And has many effects. One effect was that it preserves for the United States a major air base, the Palmerola Air Base, one of the last ones remaining in Latin America. We’ve been kicked out of all the others.
44. Goodman: Noam, I have two questions, and we only have two minutes left. One is about North Korea. The WikiLeaks documents show Chinese diplomats saying that Chinese officials increasingly doubt the usefulness of neighboring North Korea and would support reunification. The significance of this?
45. Chomsky: I’m very skeptical about that statement. There is no indication that China would be willing to have U.S. troops on its border, and that’s the very likely outcome of a reunified Korea. They’ve been bitterly objecting to U.S. naval maneuvers in the Yellow Sea, not far from their coast, what they call their economic territorial waters, and expanding U.S. military forces near their borders is the last thing they want. They may feel — I don’t know — that North Korea simply is unviable, and it will have to collapse, and that’s a terrible problem for them from many points of view. That I don’t know. But I’m pretty skeptical about that leak.
46. Goodman: Finally, Noam, your latest book, Hopes and Prospects, what gives you hope?
47. Chomsky: Well, the “hopes” part of that book is mostly about South America, where there really have been significant, dramatic changes in the past decade. For the first time in 500 years, the South American countries have been moving towards integration, which is a prerequisite for independence, and have begun to face some of their really desperate internal problems. A huge disparity between islands of extreme wealth and massive poverty — a number of the countries, including the leading one, Brazil, have chipped away at that.
Goodman: We have ten seconds.
49. Chomsky: And Bolivia has been quite dramatic with the takeover by the indigenous population in a major democratic election. These are important facts.
Goodman: Noam Chomsky, thanks so much for
being with us. Oh, by the way, happy birthday, pre-birthday.
Goodman: Noam Chomsky, Professor Emeritus at
MIT, Massachusetts Institute of Technology, author of over a hundred books, his
latest called Hopes and Prospects.